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Community Should we stop doing official team tournaments?

Discussion in 'Global Tournaments' started by Disaster Area, May 24, 2018.

  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    This is something I've thought about occasionally and I know Peasounay is an advocate for removing team tournaments. The main reason I consider the idea of removing them is because it turns so many players' attitudes to garbage, but there are other reasons to consider it too. Like, I kinda feel like they diminish the hype/interest in the seasons, for example. I like the idea of the site going towards more just trying to develop the seasons, developing the analysis side of the site, and working on tiering and so on. I also think our ideas for team tournaments aren't particularly original (2 near copies of smogon tournaments with, in the latest iterations, only smogon metagames included basically)... I get tho that it's fun to have tournaments of that sort on here because we have a different community... maybe we could do something different though? Like maybe doing a PPL-style tour but where players form their own teams rather than forming teams via auction, for example, so just a friends league? I don't know, but WCoPP was kinda plagued with inactivity (rip Brazil and Spain) and honestly the attitude of people in the PPL chats and towards the tour in general have been pretty sh!tty. I did have a lot of fun with Flareon Force though, great team environment, but the PPL chats with people from all teams in were frankly unpleasant.
     
  2. Stockings

    Stockings Mum stole me darts Member

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  3. Lutra

    Lutra Site Founder Owner

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    Just don’t start them without 2 or 3 very good, active hosts imo. Also discipline people for insulting hosts so hosts actually want to host.

    I think seasons should always be the priority but team tournaments even salvage PO Official Tournaments from being completely dead, so it’s clearly something people want. We just have to figure out how to make them more enjoyable for everyone.
     
  4. Dizno

    Dizno Liquid Swords Host Emeritus

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    Dont stop team tours just because some players in this game have shitty attitudes. Just have stricter preset rules to make sure no controversial nonsense ensues in the middle of a tournament.

    Also the bitter disagreement and rivalry (which can lead to trash talk etc) is perfectly healthy and normal in a team tour. It makes it more competitive.
     
  5. Lojh

    Lojh Above Average GSCer Member

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    Me likey ppl. Team tours are good learning experiences. TSR is very good at teaching me gsc and stuff and i would not have this experience without ppl.
     
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  6. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    If you can't stand a fistful of guys out of 100 or something talking trash at you, maybe it's because you somehow know you fucked up big time at some point. Just don't fuck up again and you'll be fine.

    If you want to differ, just have PPL to happen more often than once a year with some sort of recycle of players, turning teams into actual franchises.
     
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  7. Mannat

    Mannat Member

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    I think that the main issues with team tours on this site, (with PPL being the one that comes to mind for me) are fixable issues and just small oversights that can br adjusted pretty easily. The main things I have in mind are the following:

    • We weren’t careful when placing people into important positions - Eseque is a great user and valuable contributor to the site, but hosting a team tour is much more rigorous than hosting an individual and much more stressful overall. If a more experienced and thus better candidate was hosting the tour, then many of the issues that arose likely wouldn’t have happened. Additionally, certain users that are obviously concerning to have at the head of the community’s sole drafting based team tournament, with Konzern being the main one that comes to mind, were allowed to manage in PPL and frankly shouldn’t have been trusted in the first place. I do like several members of team ice and believe that team has a slew of quality players, but the team was muddied down by Konzern’s attitude and ended up suffering because of it.
    • Lack of accountability - Many people participting in this tournament were able to behave very childishly and fling insults at others and generally get away with a lot of shit they shouldn’t. This was cleaned up quite a bit near the end of the tour with the bans of ninjax konzern, but I think the GTT should’ve been more proactive when dealing with trouble makers. I believe that there’s a line between being too harsh with punishments and the extreme degree of leniency that PP provides to its users. I think that if we move forward and are cognescant of this when running our tours, a lot of the bad attitudes and behavior present in PPL won’t be present in future tours.
    I hope that we can take these things into account while still making team tours inclusive and fun for everyone participating. Thanks for reading my post and have a nice day! I really enjoyed PPL in spite of its issues and would love to play in more PP team tours in the future, so pls don’t delete.
     
  8. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    Please don't get rid of team tours. Drama may seem unpleasant but it's an indicator of a very positive thing. It shows that people care and are emotionally invested in the outcomes. As Dizno said, a little competitive heat is a perfectly normal thing. A team arguing their case for how they believe an activity call should go is a perfectly normal thing. I'd be more worried if this wasn't there because it would mean people literally don't give a shit. Team tours are an exciting event, they bring people in to the site. Of course they're more hyped than the seasons, it's always way more exciting to play as part of a team. If you got rid of them the seasons wouldn't become more important then they already are, they would be the most important thing on the site but that would just mean the site as a whole is less important.

    A little drama is totally fine (encouraged imo) we can get rid of some of the toxicity just by being more strict with punishment and having clear precedents for how to make decisions on various cases that come up in the tournaments. Personally I think the magnitude of this toxicity is blown out of proportion (it's really not as bad as you make it seem). Every tournament we have we learn a little more about how to run them. We're still in the very early stages so we have to expect a few hiccups. Every tournament will get better as long as we learn from our mistakes.
     
  9. eden

    eden end. Host Emeritus

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    ^ exactly

    i've said this before but whenever push comes to shove, you can't just go for the copout answer of removing team tours;

    and about the toxicity portion its definitely not all of us being toxic; you didn't see me making a storm when a decision went against my team did you? ultimately hosts are the ones who give out wins, as players and teams we make our cases.

    the toxicity is on players, a few of the players to be more exact. One of them was literally allowed to get away with highway robbery and say or do as he pleased for months which is an example of how absurd the leniency on site was at one point. Now that you have precedent for dealing with problem users the rest should be easy.

    And really its not all that difficult to behave yourself online; so this isn't some slippery slope being created of where to draw the line. If you behave like an idiot online, face the consequences, simple as that.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
  10. deluks917

    deluks917 Host Emeritus

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    People should stop complaining so much. Things didn't go amazing for me in PPL and you didn't see me complaining. You see the same thing in individual tours. The opponent will get a little 'lucky' and they start raging. It just ruins stuff for everyone. To win a decent size event you need to get lucky (unless you are BKC). Decisions will go against you. People should just let this stuff go instead of making an environment so toxic that DA considers cancelling PPL.
     
  11. Stockings

    Stockings Mum stole me darts Member

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    counterpoint: people getting buttmad over hax is the biggest reason to follow any tour.
     
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  12. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    I don't like team tours but I think getting rid of them would be foolish. For all the drama they bring, I think it's clear they're still an immensely popular format. From the perspective of growing the community they're excellent, as they tend to be great at attracting new users and establishing this place as a legit community. I agree with everyone else that we should be addressing the issues associated with team tours rather than removing them altogether.

    I do think that although the Konzern/Ninjax situation established some precedent, there are still other behaviours that are problematic for which that precedent might not apply. For instance, I don't think anyone has ever been significantly disciplined for simply flaming someone, which is a very different action to the stuff that got Konzern/Ninjax banned. If there's no line drawn between acceptable and unacceptable, someone's eventually going to push things as far as possible. I think in such cases we need to be aware that our "precedent" might not be that strong, and also be ready to establish a proper precedent if necessary
     
  13. eden

    eden end. Host Emeritus

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    The toxicity was just lying under the surface then, and either was just never noticed, never dealt with , or never had a more public forum to be put on display; either way it’s hardly the formats fault, also people disputing calls is certainly not limited to team tours, it’s just that in seasonals no one cares enough usually to dispute activity calls.

    Screenshot by Lightshot - case in point; if this was any other site this'd warrant at least a warning lol
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2018
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  14. Christos

    Christos Moderator

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    I believe that team tournaments are an integral part of most competitive pokemon communities. They bring people together and reinforce the "community feeling". As already mentioned above, drama over decisions is expected to a degree and is an indicator that people actually care about the tournament. On the other side, acting like an utter retard and for a decision taken by the GTT is something really annoying for both the people who are indifferent to the situation discussed and obviously the hosts of the tournament, who are guaranteed to make calls that won't always please every side involved. So, while I disagree with ending team tournaments in PP, I can understand what caused the frustration of the GTT. However, I think that a large part of the animosity could had been avoided if the hosts were a bit more proactive. In order to avoid similar situations in the future, these are some requirements that, in my opinion, should be met before the next iteration of a team tournament :
    - Having an established disciplinary system to take care of the troublemakers.
    - Having a really solid tournament ruleset before the tournament starts.
    - Picking the least controversial and the most respected people for hosting and managerial positions.
    The details of implementing the above could be discussed in separate threads but I feel confident that by meeting these requirements the amount of drama would be minimized.
     
  15. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja Member

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    i think he's doing this in an attempt to get me to leave even the last few sections i still visit in this site
     
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  16. Ilesaural

    Ilesaural Manque pierda. Host Emeritus

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    I'll take from my brief experience here,
    my opinnion is clear, removing team tours is a clear mistake.

    I started here, due a team tour (wcopp) and even we had a bad run in Spain, that was the first important tour I played and the one who make me be known in either spanish and pp community. I also met very cool guys and the experience was nice (even if the half of the team were ghosts). That tour also helped me gaining confidance and learned a bunch of things (ty mdragon, basket etc) and I started in a forced way in gsc, but anyway was kinda cool. Also helped me for playing ppl.

    As you can see, i'm against removing this type of tours. Anyway, I think there're things that can be done better.
    -Being strict with ragequits or leaves of a tour.
    -Ask the people about their oppinion (is a thing that we do, and we should continue with it)

    All for now, ty for reading me
     
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