RBY 4U (Under3U) [RBY 4A/4U] Discussion thread

How do you guys feel about this meta, specifically its diversity? I have some concerns here, but I'm not sure if/what anything should be done about it. Will we see a situation where teams seldom deviate from the same top pokemon? Think lead/Moth/King/Pory/Toise/Poke (Toise is probably the easiest one to drop imo). There's more to talk about than that, but I'm really tired tbh and I just want to see what other ppl think.

I keep comparing to 1U and the lead+Big 4 structure, but that leaves a final slot where you've got a host of good options, notably including the electric-water-ground triad. I'm not sure even that last thing exists for the generic 4U team, it just feels like the top pokemon are so much better than the other options that there's little incentive to diversify

 

I feel this is gonna be a long post

I didn't really like this tier when we started it, I didn't understand it. I felt like everything in it was just annoying: pokemon, how battles went, teambuilding etc. I still played it a lot without really realising it (thanks marco) and now I like it.

It's a very luck reliant format compared to the other RBY tiers (at least those that I've played). Sometimes in 1U you can afford to take some risks like throwing that Blizzard with your paralysed Starmie against the opposite Alakazam before Twaving it because you know the odds that you will die because of that risk are very low. In 4U you can't recover from hax as easily apart if you hax yourself. A lot of situations are decided by speed ties, crits, drops, fps etc. Of course those situations occur in 1U but it doesn't always decide on the income of the game, it kinda just orients a situation towards another. Here I feel it is really decisive even early game.

It's what I like about it, not that it's luck-reliant, but the fact that it's intense. Every decision, every situation, is very crucial and close. Mindgames are decisive, and I think one of the keys of winning in 4U is winning the Nidoking mindgames vs Twave + Psychic users (mainly Porygon and Slowpoke). Honestly, I can't think of the last time I clearly dominate a game without early game luck. It's tough to purely outplay your opponent.

As for diversity well yeah, it's less diverse than 1U. Imo you just don't drop S3, whereas you can drop some members of the big 4. And even for the filler spots you don't have that many consistent options. S through B rank are just plain better than the rest. What to do about it ? Well imo nothing, that's just the way the tier is. You can see it as a negative side or an appeal, up to preference. Basically I think the tier is interesting so I play it. What actually strikes me the most is the difference in the viability rankings between 3U and 4U. I think we agree 3U is a diverse format. Well 4U S through B ranks have 10 mons, and 3U B ranks have 10 mons. There's a shitload of pokemon in 4U D rank and not that much above, it's the opposite in 3U. So yeah, you've got few consistent options. Every pokemon below B rank you will rarely use in a serious tournament game (I don't consider 4U frontier to be one). It's just not consistent enough in a fast paced metagame, and what you gain using them doesn't make up for what you lose.

As for teambuilding, this is what I usually do in serious teams:

- Moth lead / Tangela / Nidoking / Porygon / Blastoise / Slowpoke, Abra, Staryu
- Anti Moth lead (Rapidash, Abra) / Moth / Nidoking / Porygon / Blastoise / Slowpoke, Abra, Scyther, Staryu

I think if you lead Moth, it's close to mandatory to have Tangela as a back up Sleeper, the reason being if you encounter another Moth Lead. If you don't have back up sleep, losing the Moth ditto will put you in some serious trouble (because obviously you can't really afford to switch to smth else to take sleep), if you have Tangela, you're more or else fine. So basically when I don't run Tangela, I anti Lead moth.

In the first formula I prefer a Water in the last slot because the team is already weak to fires. In the second one I evoid pairing Scyther with Abra lead for the same reason. This is just how I play so obviously it's not necessarily better than another way it's just how I feel comfortable. I don't drop Blastoise because I think it's great but it's clearly possible to play without it. And I don't really like omastar, non lead fires and stuff so I don't play them. I'll never play C/D rank in tournament, Nidoqueen might be the only exception.

 

Yeah I think that sums up the meta pretty well. Some people are more happy to use omastar/other fires but that's how it goes.

What do you think of Poliswag peasounay?

Also standard sets and reasoning for those who aren't doing enough battling/observing (lusch/marco/peas/eni correct me if I go wrong):
Venomoth: Psychic / Sleep Powder / Stun Spore / Double Edge OO: Mega Drain
Psychic is a menace vs everything, sleep/stun is super good, double edge>mega drain as it 2HKOs Abra, which is pretty important. MD in OO since it helps vs slowpoke.
Porygon: Thunder Wave / Recover / Psychic / Thunderbolt OO: Blizzard, maybe Sharpen+Dedge?
Basically psychic+tbolt is superior coverage. Blizzard is only better than psychic vs tangela, which isn't too big a threat when you have moth on every team and usually other checks too (but it's something to consider). Maybe it's better vs nido too? not sure. It's more accurate though, and much better vs moth which is important. Dedge maybe worth noting for hitting abra really hard so maybe psychic+dedge is an option, but tbolt is nice to be nasty to all the waters.
Nidoking: EQ / Tbolt / Fire Blast / one of Sub or Counter or Blizz
EQ is your main move ofc, tbolt+fire blast hits everything, notably getting SE damage vs moth (not too important tho) whilst still retaining coverage vs scyther/tangela. tbolt is a reliable move to smack waters a little harder with (mainly slowpoke/staryu). Last slot is not too important. Sub abuses paralysis, Counter can help vs Scyther possibly, Blizz is for slightly better damage option vs pidgeot/freeze option/more accurate option to hit grasses. Sub is usually the best choice.
Blastoise: Surf or Hydro / BSlam / Rest / Blizzard
not 100% sure on the set, but EQ doesn't hit anything when electrics are pretty irrelevant (it's what u have nidoking for boys..) so surf/hydro is stab, bslam is for the para spread (can help in toise dittos), blizz for tang. Not much available other than I guess Stoss (?) or even Hyper Beam. Maybe running Surf+Hydro is an option, not 100% sure where the damage makes a diff.
Slowpoke: Twave / Psychic / Rest / Amnesia OO: Reflect
nothing unexpected here but reflect is an option to let you beat nido 1v1. Obv u run it over twave in that case. Lusch ran it, no comment on its viability right here.
Abra: has an analysis
Rapidash: Fire Blast / Fire Spin / Body Slam / Hyper Beam OO: Agility
Pretty obvious here.
Scyther: Slash / Swords Dance / Hyper Beam / Sub or Quick Attack
I think... Slash is a really nice high damage move obv, SD+HB makes you super threatening. Sub means abusing para'd opps and can make you more threatening. Quick Attack I think's a serious option but noone else uses it, to be super dangerous when para'd. Wing Attack for Gastly isn't worth it cos it basically doesn't exist in this meta. Double Edge is kinda pointless when you already have Slash and SD+HB. Obv only real reason to run oma is destroying this mon and fires, but it's not evne certain u'll do that reliably depending on how the match plays out.
Staryu: I'm not rly sure but Recover / Twave / Thunderbolt / Surf sounds right. Only issue for that set is tang, so blizz is maybe an option over surf. Stronger attack vs nidos/fires seems relevant tho. Maybe psychic is usable for moth? Idk. This mon isn't too good idt D:
Tang: I think standard is Sleep/Stun/Growth/MDrain but I guess Bind/BSlam/Rest/SD/... could work. Want someone else to comment on it tbh. But it's surprisingly threatening tbh.
Arcanoodle: Fire Blast / Body Slam / Hyper Beam / Agility or Sub
it gets fuck all else and it's not that good idt
omastar: hydro / rest / blizz / stoss
hydro 2HKOs nido. Stoss is ur best vs toise I guess. Rest is rest. Blizz for tang.
poli$wag: has an analy$i$ alrdy
nidoqueen: no idea
also magneton has an analysis

 

Sounds good, Growth plus MD works but is completely useless against Fires and Moth, so dropping Growth for Bodyslam is not too bad vs Moth at least.
Going completely physical with SD and Bslam lets Omastar wall u which is ridiculous...

 

Droping Growth for Body Slam means you lose against Blastoise, psychic porygon, and have no way to deal with nidos (if they come in on set up Tang they don't always win), it also gives you potential trouble vs slowpoke. Body Slam on moth does the same amount as moth's psychic on Tang, so it's not even a sure trade with the threat of a special drop.

 

You could try Mega Drain/SD/phys attack/filler for a different approach, sorta like 3U venusaur even maybe/victreebel.

 

Oh okay, I assumed Double Powder to be mandatory but sure if you drop it you can keep Mega Drain...
Not saying Growth does not have its merits, it is definitely good for Tangela, but don't act like it lets u beat Slowpoke which is nonsense. It helps vs Nido for sure. All I wanted to say was that it is fairly useless if your opponent has a fire type, and that Bodyslaming on the switch instead of using Growth could catch that firy type and maybe paralyze it without having to prdict Stun Spore...

Edit: I actually cared to calc and was surprised by MD vs Slowpoke... nevermind Growth is actually quite good here...

 

You know guys...
something different... I was wondering how you guys feel about Nidoking...
I've been thinking if Nidoking might be suspect worthy or not and want to hear your opinions on that. I could write text about why it might be suspect worthy, but I think the ones who have played this tier have already seen what a beast Nidoking is and don't need a long explanation plus I don't feel like writing a long text about it now. In short it would sound something like: This thing has no switch ins that would in a theoretical scenario win 1v1 vs Nidoking, not Blastiose, not Venomoth which are the best you can fine...
Anyway just wanna know if anyone else has wondered about King being "broken in 4U and if so if u feel it could be discussed...

 

Spoiler

Lusch:also i feel like Nidoking is No.1 in this tier
Lusch:I used to think it was Porygon
Lusch:but Nido is just a beast
Peasounay:i also agree with that
Peasounay:it's the most threatening mon
Peasounay:more than 1u tauros
Lusch:definitely
Peasounay:enigami and da were talking about suspecting it but i don'tagree
Lusch:i wonder if it is suspect worthy
Lusch:yea^^
Lusch:oh u don't agree
Peasounay:no i think thetier is fine
Peasounay:gross but fine
Lusch:i have not made up my mind about it
Peasounay:it won't change much
Lusch:but i certainly wonder if it is worthy of a suspect
Peasounay:nothing counters it so you won't change your teams
Peasounay:you'll just put queen in the spot
Peasounay:and it will change a couple speed ties
Lusch:I mean, like I said I'm not certain an that but I can see it getting suspected
Peasounay:getting suspect means talking about a ban right ?
Lusch:yes
Lusch:I mean of course u don'tkill teams with it
Lusch:but it has no switch in
Peasounay:We can talk about it but i'm strongly opposed to a ban
Lusch:Idk yet but I could imagine the tier being healtier without i
Peasounay:It's powerful but it's not overdominating the format
Peasounay:and it's a good mon to break annoying shit like pory and poke
Lusch:healthier*
Lusch:yes that is true
Peasounay:and i mean
Peasounay:i never have the feeling that i'm hopeless against nido
Lusch:hm... it is interesting tome that others thought about that as well... I guess i will post it as a question in the discussion thread
Peasounay:i never feel like "omggggggg nido op it steals game"
Lusch:ok how come?
Peasounay:it's offensively threatening, just like tauros
Lusch:what's ur recepie
Lusch:no it is more threatening than tauros
Peasounay:one of the keys is winning the mindgames with/against twave psychic users
Lusch:cause tauros has switch ins like starmie, snorlax, lapras, eggy, slowbro
Lusch:some more some less
Peasounay:yea but they can all suffer
Peasounay:moth, toise can switch in
Peasounay:non para pory
Lusch:and beat in 1v1?
Lusch:no
Lusch:at best they force it out
Peasounay:toise forces it out or does heavy damage
Lusch:and moth or toise are not hard to switch into
Peasounay:so it's in your own nido range
Peasounay:well what you listed in 1U isn't hard to switch into either
Lusch:yesbut it forces it out and took 30%
Lusch:it does that exactly once
Lusch:but it could go 1v1 vs tauros if they switch into its spammable move: bodyslam
Lusch:nothing(not even scyther lol) switches into eq and wins 1v1
Peasounay:i see your point
Peasounay:but
Peasounay:think about it like this:
Peasounay:how many times do you really lose because of some nido bullsh*t ?
Lusch:okay... i c
Lusch:but the games revolve around whos nido survives the other nido
Peasounay:if speed tie happens you can have previously chipped the other nido to have the advantage
Lusch:and nidoking dittos have another dimension than tauros dittos
Peasounay:and then you have stuff like moth fires or abra that outspeed
Lusch:one speed tie win crit and thats it
Lusch:are u really arguing fires?
Peasounay:for the revenge kill*
Lusch:that gta hit super effectively by eq?
Lusch:ah ok
Lusch:yea they are not that good revenge killers
Lusch:cause u can just switch in ur water or fodder sometin alse
Lusch:i mean ofc sometimes the oppo cannot fodder something else
Lusch:hm... I mean I don't say it is broken just now, but I actually lean towards that direction the more i play 4U
Peasounay:what would it accomplish ?
Peasounay:everybody will just play queen
Lusch:I am curious now and ask what others think in the discussion thread since clearly people hae thout about that too
Lusch:yes
Lusch:but queen has a switch in
Lusch:blastoise
Peasounay:2%
Peasounay:is the difference in damage
Lusch:and does not hit that hard (hard enough sure, but lower crit chacne, overall worse speed tier)
Lusch:it's not the damage on toise
Lusch:it is the spee advantage toise has
Peasounay:and the crit rate is 1,8% difference
Lusch:so it actually forces it out
Peasounay:well i'm gonna use the argument you used
Peasounay:blastoise isn't hard to switch into
Lusch:king does not have to switch out frankly
Peasounay:it does
Lusch:y ok
Lusch:no
Peasounay:it stays in only if you're in a losing position
Peasounay:or a overwhelming winning one
Lusch:if u fell funny u can stay in and beat toise 1v1
Lusch:yes
Lusch:but that was my point, toise switches in and loses in a pinch
Lusch:so what is ur toise is not hard to switch into point?
Lusch:do u wanna say queen is just as threatening as king?
Peasounay:no
Peasounay:it's just that when i said blastoise can switch in nido
Peasounay:you said it didn't count that much (sort of)
Peasounay:because then you switch in blastoise
Lusch:because it doesn't
Lusch:because king outpaces toise
Peasounay:switch in smth that switches in blastoise
Lusch:what kind of switch in loses to the poke it is supposed to switch in 1v1?
Lusch:i have never seen that anywhere
Lusch:of course that is not how it goes
Peasounay:I think the blastoise being a switch in to queen isn't enough to replace king by queen in the tier
Lusch:king uses eq, toise eats 30% andking switches
Peasounay:what's the difference with queen here ?
Lusch:but the fact alone that the best switch in (or is there something better? (honest question)) loses if it really goes 1v1....
Lusch:that's something i have never seen in any tier
Lusch:there is the difference that theoretically queen could not go in the 1v1 and win
Lusch:whereas king could
Peasounay:i think moth is better than toise as a switch in but it can't switch in as often
Lusch:okay moth
Peasounay:andyou can let smth useless die to go to abra
Lusch:and then?
Lusch:psychic
Lusch:king takes it and kills with eq?
Lusch:i gotta admid eq only kills 60% of the time
Lusch:but abra is praying for the crit if it goes against full health nido
Peasounay:it's notlike it's impossible to chip king before
Lusch:hm
Peasounay:king doesn't switch in a lot
Lusch:well ofc not
Lusch:but for king to be chipped (meaning that the king user lets it take a hit) it usually "chipped" more on the opposing team
Lusch:by hitting like a truck
Lusch:but idk...
Peasounay:i mean
Lusch:what u are saying
Peasounay:you're thinking by the maths here
Peasounay:which is obv something totake into account
Peasounay:but the main questions imo should be
Peasounay:is the tier revolving around nido ? no
Peasounay:a lot of mindgames are around it though
Lusch:u basically need moth and toise healthy (and not alseep (moth gets slept sometimes) and an abra to handle king
Lusch:that is one halt of ur team
Lusch:and even then it is not safe
Peasounay:does it steal games ? not really, it happens, but it's not the only thing that can
Lusch:is the tier revolving around nido ? no
Lusch:iwould say yes
Peasounay:do you teambuild around nido ? no, you just brainlessely add him
Peasounay:and it's not the only thing you brainlessely add
Lusch:yes but that is not a point anti suspect
Lusch:it rather is pro suspect
Peasounay:is it centralising ? i mean no
Lusch:it is such a beast and u dont even have to build for it
Lusch:of course it is centralizing
Lusch:u call it mindgames
Lusch:it is true
Lusch:there are mindgames
Lusch:but it is like u say
Lusch:mindgames chipping nido (using wave or not, maybe king comes in an wave and punishes u heavily for it)
Lusch:those mindgames often arise from nidos presence and his strength
Peasounay:yes that is true
Peasounay:but if you ban it
Peasounay:mindgameswill occur from other strenghts
Peasounay:honestly
Peasounay:and i'm not saying that just to purely help my opinion
Peasounay:i feel like abra is sometimes more annoying than king
Peasounay:SOMETIMES of course
Peasounay:moth gives you heavy advantages in terms of paralysis etc
Peasounay:anything can be annoying
Peasounay:and nido doesn't steal games
Peasounay:you don't often lose to some bs
Peasounay:and yea sometimes it ends up to a nido ditto
Peasounay:but that's also the case with tauros
Peasounay:sometimes your opp crits with eq and you can't recover from it
Peasounay:maybe it in the previous game you had 2 fparas so your slowpoke was at +4 and ran a rampage
Peasounay:or your abra had a spec drop that allowed you to win
Peasounay:the tier is gross, and it won't change without nido
Lusch:yea... I know that it does not win every game
Lusch:but its raw power, speed and the ability to take almost any hit if u need make it a whole different and more powerful threat than the others
Lusch:i think it would be different wthout nido for sure
Peasounay:i think it won't be that different
Lusch:don't wanna go into theory what would change and stuff
Lusch:and maybe a nidoless meta would have porblems with Porygon or Slowpoke
Lusch:(Idon't think so)
Peasounay:i think it MIGHT be the case
Lusch:yeah but I think the only way to see if the metagame would be healthier with or without Nidoking (whatever that "helthy" even is) can only be seen if it gets tested
Peasounay:that is true

We just talked about it with Lusch so I post this to evoid re-writing things

 

I personally don't think nido's banworthy but I guess suspect is reasonable.

A la tauros ditto, you can use blizzard once and get the freeze and that's a huge advantage (I do it sometimes, and it's happened to me and totally turned the game around before..). Thing is it doesn't come in too easily - it takes a lot of skill to get it in for free; whilst there's no real counters there's plenty of checks, which to some degree can be used to switch in or force it out (moth switches in if healthy, toise forces it out in some scenarios, porygon at least prevents it switching in via using psychic/blizzard, slowpoke is at worst chipping it 1v1, abra is a check although can't switch in on EQ unless in a serious pinch, rapidash can burn it which is hugely crippling or fire spin, scyther is chipping it hard, staryu is ok vs it when unpara'd, tangela can switch in earlier on, on EQ, and threaten it out with status). Whilst removing it would add to diversity a little bit, I don't think it's really enough to factor in the arguement.

Every mon in the meta can at least prevent it switching in to some degree or chips it heavily in the matchup; plenty of common pokes can switch in once or maybe twice earlier on if needed to. Later on, it's great at acting like a tauros insofar as it can guarantee the revenge kill, since once certain things are sufficiently damaged nothing wants to switch in, but until later on in the game you can always find something to force it out. It's a great breaker, and a great late-game cleaner, but it takes somewhat careful play to use it in the former role effectively and there's means to play around it early on, whilst later on it is what it is, though on some teams you can keep an abra or something in the back till the late game sometimes too.

So yeah my view is basically:
Early game - you have switchins that threaten it
Takes skill to use - everything threatens it to some degree so it takes skillful play to use it as a breaker, but there's high reward for that
Late game - kind of like a tauros but you can pack a faster mon for the late game to make it less of an issue if you lose the possible ditto (e.g. abra, scyther, as well as your moth/maybe rapidash which could have been around earlier though less likely to be useful there)

It's really good, yeah, but it's not game-breakingly powerful, it's not holding back much in the way of diversity, and it takes skill to get good use out of it. So I'm anti-ban currently, but I'm indifferent to if you want a suspect test.

 

On Nidoking I can see both ways, as there are no real answers to it but everything has something to chip it with. I'm not sure what I'd vote if it came to a suspect, but I'm leaning more towards it not being broken. I think DA's post by and large hits the nail on the head, Tauros is a reasonable comparison I think. Of note is that Nido has midgame opportunities that Tauros doesn't really have (abusing electric immune). However I do disagree that it's not significantly impacting diversity, as its presence single-handedly prevents electrics from gaining a foothold in the meta, which has secondary effects on water types, but this is all theorymon.

To clarify on my previous post, I think the tier's "balanced" in that no one pokemon dominates the meta (idk about King). It's only when you look at the top 5 or so pokemon that I see any potential issue

 

Mostly, this: both ways have their reasons.
I think Venomoth to be the best check/counter to Nidoking, as long as it's not walled easily (depends on Porygon or Abra, mainly- and in both cases a well timed prediction can outplay them); Stun Spore on Nidoking makes it pretty easy to be handled. Nidoking is more dangerous than Tauros because Stun Spore is rare (Arbok is outsped and weak to EQ, Parasect is OHKO'd, Butterfree is mediocre)...

My final proposal is to get the job done with 4U (get this tournament done, complete rankings), then straight up try the tier with Nidoking banned. Then, a) leave it the way it is b) create a banlist tier, that we know already + new 4U tier with Nidoking banned.

 

Thing is if you ban Nidoking you just have Nidoqueen doing the same job, which is better checked by toise and still screws over electrics, but it would help Abra/Arbok/Kabutops/Gastly/Staryu, but I don't think it would have a major effect. I think I'm still very much anti-ban, but I'm not opposed to a suspect.

The question which we need to address is: how do we do a suspect? That's about the only thing that we've not really figured out on here :S

 

That's false: Nidoqueen's outsped by Blastoise and Staryu, doesn't have 60% to OHKO Abra- that means something. It's worth some playtesting, if that's the matter.

 

I'm with Enigami on this one, if most of us think that Nidoking isn't OP/broken/GSClaxlike I don't see why we should do a suspect. I don't want to do a shitload of playtesting to end up with two very similar tier. I haven't played 2u/2p but from what I see it looks that the birds were wayy more centralizing than Nidoking is in 4U, to the point where you end up with two different tiers by banning them, so fair enough. It comes to whether or not we agree on "is the tier currently fine as it is ?" I think the answer is yes, "Will 4U be that different from 4P ?" No "Is there a point to split two metas with how Nidoking fares?" No. It's strong, but 4U can't be described as "the nidoking tier"

 

Switching into Nidoqueen is easier than switching into Nidoking. I'd like to try different teams before you can say they're unviable.
Obviously, we're talking about electrics: I don't think that it's worth at the moment to use them, having to switch into Nidoking, while it could be worth it in case Nidoqueen takes Nidoking's place.

4U is pretty much Nidoking's tier: it's both the stallbreaker AND a sweeper, as it has an high speed. Nidoqueen is not as much of a sweeper, other pokemon are not as stallbreaking. Scyther comes to mind, but it has hard counters; same for Rapidash, and it gets TWaved.

 

Well... pretty much agree with what Marco said... 4U is Nidokings Tier... not that it wins games on its own, but as Marco already said, it is both wallbreaker and Sweeper whereas Queen is not that much of a Sweeper mostly due to speed...
Nidoking can take out pretty much every mon on the opposing team that troubles ur own team (including Abra) and still outspeeds a lot so that u might have to go for a speed tie with ur own King to revenge it (or tie with Staryu), which u can obviously lose (and in worst case even die to a crit). One can compare it to Tauros, but I think in this tier it is even better than Tauros in 1U.
While I agree that Queen would likely take his spot, she will not be as dominant due to being actually easier to revenge kill and switch into generally (Blastoise). And thus I believe that it would not just replace it and not be S rank in the new meta (maybe not even A) which leads to players not using it on almost every team, which could definitely lead to more diversity because maybe Electrics are actually used or people think about another Ground instead of Queen (Onix, Graveler?)...