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RBY OU / 1U (OverUsed) Persian [Done]

Discussion in 'Individual Analyses' started by CrapAtRBY, Sep 9, 2015.

  1. CrapAtRBY

    CrapAtRBY Member

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    Persian [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Type: Normal
    Stats: 65 | 70 | 60 | 65 | 115

    Introduction

    Persian joins the likes of Kangaskhan and Dodrio as one of the secondary physical threats you will see in OU from time to time. Perisan is best used alongside Tauros rather than as a replacement, Persian needs paralysis support as most of the big OU threats will beat it in a one-on-one situation and is overall a mediocre choice in OU, but in certain situations it can shine.

    Persian's main claims to fame are it's huge Speed (tying Starmie and being outsped by just Jolteon, Alakazam and gimmick/niche Pokemon such as Dugtrio and Aerodactyl) which allows it to threaten to revenge kill Tauros and its access to Slash, which due to RBY's crit mechanics, will always crit if it hits, giving Persian a 140BP STAB Move with no drawbacks, compensating for its meager attack. Nevertheless, Persian remains outside of 1U thanks to occupying the same niche as the omnipresent and vastly superior Tauros, it's bulk and being utterly crippled by paralysis.

    Sweeper / Revenge Killer

    Persian
    - Slash
    - Hyper Beam
    - Bubblebeam
    - Screech / Thunderbolt

    Set Details

    Slash will be your main move and should be used against anything that doesn't resist it, as it always crits it will be unaffected; by Reflect and able to deal out impressive damage to the likes of Alakazam (guaranteed 2HKO) and Chansey (53.8% chance to 2HKO), the downside is, as Slash will forever crit, there's no way to squeeze out any extra damage from it when you're desperate. This is where Hyper Beam comes in. Hyper Beam is slightly more powerful than Slash without a crit, and can be used in those situations where you need that extra bit of damage, but it really comes in handy in those clutch situations where Persian needs a critical hit to avoid dying, which between Persian's frailty and 22.46% crit rate can actually save you relatively often. Bubblebeam is a guaranteed 2HKO on Golem and Rhydon. The final slot has two main options; Screech shines when you're facing your opponents last Pokemon, Thunderbolt is mainly for Cloyster and Slowbro, as Slash is better against the other Water-type Pokemon.

    Other Options

    Body Slam can paralyse Starmie on the switch. Thunder hits Cloyster for 53.1% on average and is slightly better than Slash against Starmie and Lapras. Mimic exists but Earthquake is the only useful move Persian could get.

    Checks and Counters

    Gengar is a hard counter and completely shuts down Persian. Persian should not be revealed if the opponent has a healthy Gengar. Snorlax is another solid all-around answer to Persian; Body Slam and Hyper Beam 2HKO it, but Persian does have a considerable chance to KO with Screech + Hyper Beam if Snorlax switches into Slash. Exeggutor is able to take Persian's attacks reasonably well and is able to threaten paralysis but must be wary of Slash, as it 3HKOes.

    Although Rhydon and Golem are 2HKOed by Bubblebeam, they resist all of Persian’s other moves and Bubblebeam does atrocious damage to every other Pokemon seen in the tier. This allows your opponent to bait Persian into using Bubblebeam and puts it in a very compromising position with a chain switch. Thunderbolt Persian will especially struggle against specially bulky Pokemon with Counter; Counter from an Alakazam, Jynx, or Chansey will always KO a Persian that used Slash (Snorlax’s Counter has ~49% chance to KO), but Screech followed by Hyper Beam will always KO these Pokemon. Screech Persian will struggle against physically bulky Water-types such as Lapras, Cloyster and Slowbro.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2017
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  2. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I'd rather describe it as being just outside 1U rather than on the border since in PP's tiering frankly there's better mons that aren't in 1U than persian (articuno, rhydon). Also if you follow the format (thread: All Gens - Analysis Format | Pokémon Perfect ) and put the stuff from the start of that about persian (sprite, name, stats etc part) then you needn't refer to its stats in the intro directly [so awful defences instead of awful (65/60/65) defences, etc.].

    Not sure how to reword it so I might leave it up to the grammar/prose team but I feel saying that slash can't crit in a traditional sense might confuse a lot of readers and it's not really totally sensible to say it that way, idk. Rephrase the last part, say Tbolt mainly for cloyster, as other water-types are outdamaged by slash.

    Remove Toxic from OO and mention that Mimic exists but there's not much of use it could get with it.

    I'm really inexperienced with Persian but the checks and counters looks slightly lacking. Tagging Ortheore Lutra marcoasd GGFan who could probably help fill that section out better.

    Anyway in spite of all of that, good analysis, great work. :) Very happy to see you contribute this.
     
  3. CrapAtRBY

    CrapAtRBY Member

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    Updated
     
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  4. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    This analysis actually looks pretty good imo =]

    Maybe mention Slowbro in C&C? It's a strong check if no Tbolt and workable even if Persian does have Tbolt.

    I've always favoured Tbolt on my Persian, just for the off-chance that I run into Cloy (and Bro I guess). Screech has never appealed to me, outside that last mon situation it's just not useful. Then again, I haven't run it a lot so idk *shrugs*

    As for C&C being lacking, idk it's just there's not a great deal of detail to the section, since it lists all of the checks I can think of off the top of my head. At the moment it feels a bit impersonal, like you're just listing pokemon and their KO chances, so maybe that's the reason it looks that way. So yeah, I think everything's there, but the way it's presented isn't quite right.

    Also you could throw in a GolDon mention with respect to chain-switching, since it's one of Persian's weaknesses
     
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  5. CrapAtRBY

    CrapAtRBY Member

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    Rewritten C&C
     
  6. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Wait what, now it feels like a whole bunch of stuff is missing. Egg, Lax, Lapras and Cloyster could use mentions, Counter is another thing I just thought of, GolDon mention isn't quite right since they aren't actually checks, their sole purpose in this context is to bait a Bubblebeam for something else to come in on.
     
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  7. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Slash isn't actually 140 BP because crits aren't x2 in RBY (they double the attacker's level, which at level 100 is actually a 41/21 multiplier or roughly 1.95x). But that's a quibble.

    Persian's woes when facing unparalysed Chansey are probably worth a mention (crit Hyper Beam or Screech will work, but Slash doesn't work unless Chansey's paralysed or out of Softboiled PP).

    Thunderbolt doesn't help a lot vs. Starmie (it does significantly less than Slash and Hyper Beam, though admittedly a Tbolt crit does more than Slash). It's mostly there for Cloyster/Kingler/(sort of) Slowbro and for slightly less garbage damage than BubbleBeam vs. Gengar (say, if Gengar is asleep).

    Persian Thunderbolt vs. Starmie: 107 - 126 (33.1 - 39%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
    Persian Slash vs. Starmie on a critical hit: 131 - 154 (40.6 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    Persian Hyper Beam vs. Starmie: 142 - 168 (44 - 52%) -- 13.4% chance to 2HKO
    Persian Thunderbolt vs. Starmie on a critical hit: 207 - 244 (64.1 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Persian Hyper Beam vs. -2 Starmie: 286 - 337 (88.5 - 104.3%) -- 28.2% chance to OHKO

    Persian Slash vs. Cloyster on a critical hit: 77 - 91 (25.4 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    Persian Hyper Beam vs. Cloyster: 85 - 100 (28.1 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    Persian Thunderbolt vs. Cloyster: 117 - 138 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Persian Slash vs. Kingler on a critical hit: 107 - 126 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    Persian Hyper Beam vs. Kingler: 117 - 138 (37.4 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    Persian Thunderbolt vs. Kingler: 158 - 186 (50.5 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
     
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  8. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I think you should say slash 'virtually always' crits rather than always crits, it only has a 255/256 chance to crit :q also I don't think you need to include the calcs; make it clear that rhydon/golem are 2HKOd by Bubblebeam, and that slash 2HKOs alakazam and has a good chance to 2HKO chansey.
     
  9. RBYer

    RBYer Member

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    I see Toxic was removed from the analysis. I agree with that.

    However, since Starmie (and to a lesser degree Chansey, who isn't as much of a Cloyster switch-in) is so popular, I have found that if you are running a Persian, a Toxic Cloyster runs very well alongside it, and a Golem can take advantage as well.
     
  10. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I don't understand why you'd run Toxic Cloyster to hit either of Starmie or Chansey. You don't want to hit either with Toxic. You're rather hit the former with paralysis and the latter with either paralysis or freeze depending upon your approach. Slowbro is probably the best option - if you can fit it (hint: not easily) - if you wish to specifically paralyze Starmie for Persian.
     
  11. RBYer

    RBYer Member

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    When you are running a Persian, your priorities change. Toxic Cloyster is ideal over Paralysis Slowbro because Cloyster is better at drawing out Starmie. Slowbro draws out Chansey instead more often than not, and a Paralysis does little to help Persian against it. Also in the case that you opponent switches in Chansey, Toxic is better than Thunder Wave for Persian since it guarantees a 2HKO.

    Toxic takes off damage at the end of each turn, so after you hit it with a Toxic, its HP is capped at 323 - 20 = 303. Then in order to switch in against Persian, it has to take a Slash and get hit again with Toxic. (127 - 150 HP are left after a Slash and two Toxics) and if it Thunder Waves you, it is guaranteed to be dead, because Slash does 131 minimum + the extra 20 Toxic damage it takes. So it is forced between two bad options, which is when you can send in Chansey or even Goldon, and Goldon can either Earthquake or switch to Chansey. This is a role that Rhydon can actually perform even better at, although the Explosion can be very valuable.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2016
  12. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I mean if you're using Cloyster + Persian your objective should be to chip Starmie into Explosion range (after 2 clamp hits basically), and then Explode on it. Toxic is an AWFUL status to land on Starmie except in very particular scenarios. It does depend on the Starmie set but most non-lead Starmie run Thunderbolt, so Slowbro is a good lure. Also you can otherwise dispose of Chansey through good play with Lax for example.

    That being side whilst it's an interest point it's super specific and if persian gets para'd it's virtually dead anyway (and if Persian happens to go second there's a risk for full paralysis and then you're in trouble). Also Persian and Cloyster are relatively poorer choices in the meta and you don't really want to be running them together in the first place because of how it limits the remainder of the team.
     
  13. RBYer

    RBYer Member

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    The reason why the Toxic strategy is effective is precisely because it doesn't require sacrificing a Pokemon, and you can save your Explosion for later.

    Slowbro is a very mediocre lure for Starmie if the opponent also has Chansey because:
    a) Chansey takes Thunder Wave way better than Starmie (and even wants it often)
    b) Chansey's Thunderbolt is slightly more powerful and it also takes less percentage damage from all of Slowbro's attacks, due to having over double the HP, and slightly higher Special

    That is why you take care to avoid Thunder Wave, and move to corner your opponent. There are many chances where you will have a 45% chance of killing Starmie without getting para'd by using Hyper Beam. In a Para'd Chansey vs. Toxic'd Starmie battle, you have about a 30% chance of killing it with a crit before it's able to recover off its damage. Even if you just wait for the crit you may be doing just fine.

    Would you mind me demonstrating it in a battle?
     
  14. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    But 9 times out of 10 Starmie is / should be your main target anyway, and this feels too gimmicky and unreliable in comparison to the gains you get from not using your Explosion on Starmie. Especially, you get the ability to guarantee that your Persian won't be paralyzed by Starmie if you explode on it, whereas you have a higher chance if it's only Toxic'd.

    Whilst it's not an amazing lure you did forget that Starmie's higher Critical Hit rate is one of the reasons Starmie's a likely switch-in.
     
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  15. RBYer

    RBYer Member

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    I don't get what is gimmicky about having one more bomb in the tank, especially a bomb who doesn't have to deal with its greatest enemy.
    Generally, you should try to crit it while it is asleep, and Chansey can force it into Rest.

    I forgot exactly what a good team is but I will experiment with it.
     
  16. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Toxic is such a horrible status it has a huge chance to backfire. And you're doing that because you want to trade the risk of Persian getting paralyzed for having another explosion, but a paralyzed Persian is almost useless so it's barely worth it.

    I'm just saying the higher critical hit rate means there's still a large draw to Starmie, and depending on the gamestate Chansey or Starmie may be the better switch-in. Also, given that Chansey is usually status'd by the time Slowbro is brought out but Starmie normally isn't, if it switches in on Amnesia it's instantly slower giving it fewer chances to use Thunderbolt. Indeed a healthy Slowbro has really great odds versus a paralyzed Chansey switching in, especially with Psychic's opportunity for Specfalls.
     
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  17. RBYer

    RBYer Member

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    That's not really the point though. You either have paralyzed Persian and a bomb left, or healthy Persian and a bomb left.

    As opposed to just a healthy Persian and no bomb left.

    The former option allows you either 1 or 2 effective Pokemon left, while the latter option guarantees that you have only one effective Pokemon left. The money is essentially on the house with that gamble, although Persian is probably more valuable than your bomb. But the true value is not even necessarily with taking that gamble all the time, but with the possibility of you taking that gamble, which forces the Starmie into Thunder Waving more often than it wants to on its low health, in which case you have the option of switching to Chansey or Goldon.

    I don't suggest leaving Cloyster in to take an attack against Starmie. It's more about hitting it on the switch.

    And when your team is built around that concept, "backfiring" isn't a huge problem. Your team is built so that it can handle "backfire", mainly through 2hkos that would otherwise not be obtained. Alakazam is almost guaranteed a 2hko Psychic on Tauros for example.
    Most of the time it's preferable to explode in your face rather than let Starmie get para'd. Also a paralyzed Chansey is kind of crap to have when you are using a Persian because you almost need a Chansey of your own to absorb Thunder Waves, and if you don't absorb that Thunder Wave, the enemy Chansey will cause much grief.

    I do like Slowbro quite a bit but it just doesn't provide much relevant support to Persian :(

    If I'm making a point about Paralysis on a team, I'm going to use Pokemon that can better take advantage of it.

    Overall, I just don't think Persian is all that good mainly due to those damn Gengars out there, but on the subject of Toxic, I just had to bring that up cause I do remember having an unusual amount of success with it.
     
  18. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Toxic is beyond terrible and has no place being on any team at all. Damage output is terrible and the opportunity cost of not spreading para/freeze is enormous. Also Starmie is at the forefront of the list of things you should not be spreading shitty status to. Finding one very specific scenario in which it's arguably useful does not outweigh the vast number of situations where using it is going to fuck you over. Suppose Starmie doesn't switch directly into Persian, or the scenario you described plays out and you fp, or your Persian is gone because you used it to weaken the opposing Tauros or something, or the opponent has literally any other Persian check. In all those scenarios you're screwed. In general when facing a poisoned Starmie your best case scenario is that it saps all of your momentum by forcing you to turn to a para'd Chansey and subsequently having a physical attacker go to town on you. Worst case scenario is it's literally unbreakable because it can just stall you out and fire off attacks when there's an opening such as via fp.

    Paralysis is easily the most reliable means of breaking walls due to the potential for missed turns as well as allowing slow physicals such as Lax and Golem to threaten said walls by outspeeding them. This is what Persian needs most, for whatever slow physical you've got to batter the opposing team as much as possible. Toxic doesn't help you break walls, it's an impediment as it means you're not able to secure free turns and gain any kind of speed advantage

    DA's already covered why dismissing Bro as a Star lure is ridiculous, but I wanna add that it's really not all that difficult to para Star simply by spamming BSlam, especially in the endgame where it's gonna have to switch into different physical attackers. Depicting Star as being impossible to paralyse, which is what seems to be implied is just untrue.
    Gotta say that example is far from convincing, as that's a matchup Zam ought to win more often than not- heck, it even has a good chance to 2HKO without poison. As it stands I highly doubt any team composition is able to overcome coughing up an uneven amount of fair turns as well as speed advantages. What team are you running that manages these effectively?

    Are you saying you shouldn't paralyse opposing Chansey if you're using a Persian team (ie. physical offense)? This is downright silly, you need Chansey paralysed to bring your own wallbreakers into play otherwise it just stalls you out and forces you to do something like blow up on it (which still doesn't deal with opposing physical checks).

    Sorry if I was disrespectful, I've got nothing against you, but I obviously have a very low opinion of what's been brought up in this discussion

    ^^^^^^^
     
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  19. RBYer

    RBYer Member

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    The root of your thinking problem here, is that you are applying things that are true in a general sense (Toxic being terrible), and trying to apply them to specific cases where the contention is that Toxic is not terrible.


    The very specific scenario where it’s arguably useful is the scenario where Persian is on your team. It is simply a more reliable method than any of the other options, and that’s why I brought it up, and you went ape shit.


    The chance of you FPing is half of the chance of normal FP: 12.5%


    If you are going to criticize tactics, don’t do so with things that have a remote chance of happening.


    And also what it does, that you are painfully ignoring, is add an extra card to your hand. You don’t have to hit it with anything (you can even switch out), but Starmie essentially has to use Thunder Wave. There are ways to take advantages of backing people into corners like this, and that is one of the most obvious tactics in RBY in a more general sense.


    Cloyster is also relevant because you don’t even have to use Toxic. 2 Clamps do about the same thing. So why not use just Clamp? Because Toxic is forever, and no matter what happens, Starmie will find its defensive capabilities compromised. This is helpful, no matter how much you want to acknowledge it, especially when you have attacks whose damage averages close to 50% (to both Starmie and Chansey). Clamp becomes way more effective against Chansey as well, after hitting it with a Toxic.


    Now let’s get back to Cloyster for a second, and talk about opportunity cost, because it seems like something that interests you.


    The standard Cloyster set at least according to Smogon, is Clamp, Blizzard, Explosion (3 useful moves) and Hyper Beam (which is absolute trash). I used to try to explain to the fools why Body Slam is better than Hyper Beam on Dragonite, but of course they don’t listen.


    Hyper Beam is something that is best saved for a vacuum when you are against an opponent who is easily predictable or just bad. But on Cloyster, Hyper Beam is essentially useless. I would tell people to use anything over Hyper Beam, be it Rest, Ice Beam/Surf (for hitting with 100% accuracy), or… Toxic. The opportunity cost for including Toxic on that moveset is as close to zero as you are ever going to find.


    It’s there in your hand – you don’t even have to use it, but it’s not like you were really using Hyper Beam anyway.


    And it happens to help Persian against two of its bigger obstacles, so it has good synergy on a team with Persian. On a team without Persian, I’d be using something else on Cloyster.


    You are thinking in reverse. Your opponent is forced into doing something. The game is in your hands.

    Well, duh…


    You know it’s even possible to use Toxic and Body Slam on the same team, right? The idea being: once you Toxic the Starmie you don’t use Body Slam, and once you paralyze the Starmie, you don’t use Toxic?


    Interestingly enough, once you Toxic the Starmie, Golem can cut through it with Earthquake unless it has Surf. Starmie has like 5% chance of surviving 2 Earthquakes and 3 Toxics, which is what it would have to do unless it tries to crit/freeze hax which it does have in its arsenal with Blizzard.

    Except for the cases in which it does.

    In a general sense it is, but in specific teams/situations, it is not.

    It is not impossible to do anything, and I have no completely dismissed anything, just stated that one is more reliable, which it is. You can twist my words into some sort of binary reduction of them, but that’s not my problem.


    Also I have basically alluded to, the best way to win is to not use Persian and thus not use Toxic, but in the case you use Persian, it certainly doesn’t hurt.

    My point, which I admittedly didn’t make clear, was that Alakazam does have the advantage there, and thus there is a net negative of using Toxic.

    I don’t really remember the team. All I remember was that it was surprisingly effective against good players, and about the only time that I was able to see the benefit of using Persian, which admittedly was still not as much as the benefit of not using Persian.

    It ultimately depends on who your wallbreakers are. If your wallbreakers don’t have much to gain on a paralyzed Chansey, then you don’t paralyze it. I don’t see the point of thinking in such a generality.


    If your Chansey is paralyzed and theirs isn’t, it’s often better to go for the freeze. Maybe not always, but that’s a decision you need to make yourself, depending on the way things look. But the paralyzed Chansey can be kind of crap, mainly because you can back them into a corner which forces something else to take the Thunder Wave from your Chansey, where the best they can do is try to luck you or outpredict you.

    If you really cared about not being disrespectful, you would have deleted your post and instead responded respectfully. I guess it’s not a priority for you though.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2016
  20. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    That's 1 in 8 that's really likely tbh. And it's such a terrible thing it's almost like a 1 in 8 chance to straight up lose the game, whereas if you explode properly then you have more of a fighting chance.
    1 in 8 is not remote.
    Versus virtually everything else on your team (e.g. your tauros), toxic IMPROVES its defensive capabilities rather than compromises it.
    >According to Smogon.
    PP's analyses are more up to date. But the set is basically right.
    Both are viable options and that's a fairly well-respected fact as far as I know.
    We all know the opportunity cost of that slot is close to zero (that being said I do use HB once in a while) and it's not the arguement.
    Hyper Beam can be pretty useful vs Chansey.
    The thing is though the only reason you're using Cloyster + Persian (a really shaky combination) is because of Cloyster's utility against Starmie which Persian does admittedly appreciate a little more than most.

    But here's why Cloyster + Persian is pretty shaky. So your standard team looks like Lead / Big 4 / Filler. If you have Cloyster + Persian, either you have to lead Tauros / Persian (pretty bad / suboptimal) or Exeggutor, assuming you use all of the big 4. If you lead Exeggutor the team gets completely bodied by Jynx and also struggles to get sleep (unless you go Sing Chansey but then you're significantly weaker vs Lapras which is ultimately something you'd rather not be weaker to). If you drop one of the big 4, then: 1 you need to keep Tauros since otherwise you should just run Tauros over Persian, 2 you need Snorlax because otherwise the team can't break Chansey reliably enough, so you need to drop either Exeggutor or Chansey. If you drop Exeggutor it opens you up more to Golem / Rhydon / Alakazam and you need to adapt your sleep strategy, and if you drop Chansey then the team will have serious issues switching into Starmie, making you over-reliant on Cloyster / Persian to take it out. So your team looks something like lead / Persian / Cloyster / Tauros / Snorlax / Chansey. You can't lead Gengar or Jolteon because you badly need something to absorb specfalls, and really you probably want the Sing / Stoss Chansey variant to give you reliable sleep and the means to pressure Alakazam, although Sing / Ice Beam could work too. You can't lead Starmie because then the team is horrifically Zapdos weak, so you probably go with Alakazam. The net result is a team which struggles vs Electric types, has a lot of issues with Rock + Water combinations, and also struggles with a variety of other things like Venusaur and Sing Chansey. Gengar is also an issue especially since the Persian / Cloyster core has a lot of issues with it. Also the team has some issues absorbing status and is pretty frail. I guess it's in a lot of ways just not my style but I feel like using this core always opens you up to a lot of weaknesses / worse matchups.
    Oh great so using Toxic stops you from abusing the best move in the game.
    But starmie has a high critical hit rate and it's not normally the first switch-in to Golem anyway (that's Exeggutor)
    Wait so are you saying don't use Persian basically? If so why are we even having this argument.
    But your wallbreaker should almost always be Lax and when it isn't it's usually Rhydon and if it's neither of those then I reckon it's probably an offensive psychic or Zapdos. In other words in basically every case you want to paralyze Chansey.
    I thought his response was respectful enough tbh.
     

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