SM 1U Kyogre Suspect Discussion

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Kyogre has been brought up by some members of the playerbase as potentially suspect-worthy. Here we will discuss it and if the thread has enough traction we will hold a vote on it.

Generation 7 brought with it plenty of new things, but the biggest change between generations 7 and 6 with regards to Kyogre's functionality is the massive nerf to Soul Dew, effectively removing 2 of Kyogre's better switch-ins from the metagame, making Choice Specs Kyogre even more limiting.

 

happy days. I'll get the obvious out the way by pointing out that XY Ubers had no Soul Dew which is an interesting comparison, but I honestly can't remember what that was like so idk.

As it stands now there's almost nothing that can withstand SpecsOgre- your switchins are basically limited to Palkia, nichemons like Ludicolo and Gastrodon as well as a few SupportCeus forms that still get 2HKO'd, but can stay in and attack it to weaken Water Spout. The funny thing is, such raw power would be manageable if Specs was all it had up its sleeve- just pressure it the same way you would any other potent wallbreaker. But that's made difficult by the existence of its Scarf set, which enables it to threaten a lot of attackers that might otherwise look to wear it down. Planning for those two sets is an absolute nightmare as your ability to "play around" Kyogre is significantly limited by the very different nature of each set.

Right now I think it ought to be banned, as there are only a handful of good pokemon that are consistent Ogre checks while playing around it is not a good option as incorrectly guessing its set will probably cost you a mon.

Obligatory disclaimer that I've barely played the tier. I'm also contemplating how this relates to my perspective on Ogre in other gens, particularly BW, as I see it as being a lot less problematic there, far more so than the presence of Latias would account for- maybe I need to reconsider that stance, or maybe I just need to borrow some more knowledge from that tier and apply it here. Probably both

 

I 100% think that Kyogre should be banned, as it strongly restricts team building, and it is honestly harder to play against then what it may appear on paper. On paper, it may seem like you are able to easily play around it and keep pressure on your opponent to make sure Kyogre doesn't get a chance to get in, but in practice Kyogre is actually pretty easy to get on the field, and once it is on the field, the best thing you can do if you don't have a Palkia is hope you predict the move right and send in a resist. Hopefully the Kyogre isn't Choice Specs, cause in that case your water resist is taking 60%.

Now that I gave a little reasoning, I do not think Kyogre should be banned right away, if what I heard about unbanning other mons is true. If any unbans are planned, we need to do those first, and get the tier in it's most alpha form before we start doing anything. That way we are able to make all necessary bans right the first time, instead of banning something, unbanning something else, and then having to check if the first mon we banned is balanced in a tier with the newly unbanned mon.

 

I guess we should discuss whether m-mence should be reintroduced first then... my stance is hard no but I guess there might be other opinions.

 

Re-testing Salamencite is probably the best course of action due to the Aerilate nerf, and the fact that in the early stages of the metagame it was internally decided for Salamencite to remain banned. Now that there is a larger playerbase for the tier, I think opening discussion about it is the correct way to go.

Regarding Kyogre, in my experience at least, it is only limiting bulky offense and balance archetypes (I wish I have replays saved to validate my point) because in previous generations the Lati twins were common staples for those archetypes due to the support they provided (primarily bulky Defog users capable of withstanding Kyogre). I firmly believe a Kyogre ban will strengthen stall, especially with Darkrai being nerfed in this gen.

 

Alright, I'll lock this for now since people seem to wish to discuss a salamenceite retest first.

 

Alright I'm reopening this although I don't anticipate that we should vote on this for at least another couple of weeks, we should see how mega salamence changes the metagame first and so on.